Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: ninemsn, in association with
60 Minutes, presents a live interview with security expert Ray Lambie, talking to us tonight about the
60 Minutes item on robbery and violence.
You can find out more at:
http://www.corporateprotection.com.au/
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: Ray, thank you for joining us tonight in our
60 Minutes live online chat, to talk about an issue which is touching more and more lives.
Ray Lambie: Thank you for the invitation.
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: Ray, to begin, let me ask what your experience is in the security field?
Ray Lambie: I've been a licensed security consultant since 1998 here in NSW, but I was a member of the NSW police force between 1976 and 1998 where I dealt with high-risk incidents like robbery, extortion, kidnap and counter-terrorism. I graduated from the counter-terrorist wing in the special air service regiment in WA in 1991 as a close-quarter battle instructor, and since leaving the police I have turned a combination of these skills to apply to the corporate security area.
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: Ray, we have many guests eager for you to answer their questions so we will get right to them.
Guest_Mick in ninemsnLive1 asks: As a serving detective in Sydney I am frustrated by the lack of an armed hold-up (dare I say the word) squad. What are your views? Investigations are being run by one investigator, not a team like they used to be.
Ray Lambie: I first went to work at the armed hold-up squad in 1985 when there was a team of over 60 dedicated and designated detectives, who were investigating armed robbery which was running at about less than 2000 per year. In 1996 the devolution of armed robbery investigation units saw that within two years, armed robbery had more than doubled in this state. There is nothing new in the investigation of armed robbery as they are in my opinion the most classic serial offenders. There is no doubt a huge opportunity for both the police and Government to assist the community in reapplying dedicated investigators who will target this serial criminal.
Guest_nothappy in ninemsnLive1 asks: Why did you leave the police force?
Ray Lambie: In 1998 I was involved in a very nasty incident which forced me to re-evaluate my priorities. I found there was too much risk involved in the police service as opposed to the amount of reward. After having been wishing to have been a policeman and detective since the age of eight, I made the big decision to leave and I believe that this was the right decision.
Guest_Roger in ninemsnLive1 asks: What do you see as the primary factors that increase the likelihood that a particular premises will be targeted?
Ray Lambie: Well, you must remember that the focus of armed robbery is not necessarily cash. It may in fact be jewellery, tobacco, alcohol [or] your personal belongings such as your shoes. What you must understand [is] that the motivation and ability belongs to the armed robber themselves, only you have control over the opportunities that you present to them. Target-hardening is a very important aspect in crime deterrents and in particular has a great impact upon the armed robber. What you must do is target-harden appropriately for the business that you are in and the surrounding conditions … it may seem blunt, but you must make other businesses around you look like a softer target than you.
Guest_DaBaker in ninemsnLive2 asks: What defence weapons are business owners legally entitled to?
Ray Lambie: With that question you are barking up the wrong tree because once these people are in your presence then you have already lost. Your whole focus should be in the target-hardening area where you can prevent them from getting to you in the first place. Robbers are at their most impressionable, just like terrorists, during the target selection process. Once they are there they have a 90 percent chance of success. You must understand that people like Toula Soravia, Rob Jones, Michael Marslew, Salim Danouie, Angelo Cousamino, Mark Jackson and many others have paid the ultimate price for not responding in the way that bandits would have liked. By this I mean that their behaviour was seen as either threatening or resistant behaviour towards the bandits, or the bandits perceived it to be that way.
Guest_223 in ninemsnLive1 asks: Am I actually allowed to attack an armed intruder to protect my shop?
Ray Lambie: The answer to this is that you are allowed to protect yourself with as much force as is reasonably required. However, you must also understand that your actions will no doubt be judged by a police investigation, perhaps a coronial investigation or even a civil litigation. You must understand that the strongest instinct for a human being is survival. Inappropriate responses by people who may find themselves as victims of this type of crime has numerous times in the past — and I have no doubt in the future — cost them their lives.
Guest_Andrew in ninemsnLive1 asks: Ray, by suggesting a passive response to armed robbery, aren't we encouraging armed robbers?
Ray Lambie: No, the whole focus should be on our personal safety. Armed robbery is a risk which cannot be eliminated but we can minimise the impact of it upon ourselves. There is no amount of money or property which is worth risking your personal safety or the safety of others for.
Guest_ChrisACT in ninemsnLive1 asks: On the issue of force being reasonable, do you think police and security officers should be issued with non-lethal weapons to curb civil or criminal actions?
Ray Lambie: I believe that the police and security personnel have all the appropriate weaponry that they require at this time.
Guest_Cooper in ninemsnLive2 asks: Do you agree that the primary reason armed robberies have increased is because criminals have no fear of law-abiding citizens protecting themselves and their property with firearms?
Ray Lambie: No. My opinion is that armed robbery has increased because these classic serial offenders are not being investigated as rigorously as they should be. As a result they are committing more crimes before they are apprehended. This is the nature of this serially motivated offender.
Guest_Rob in ninemsnLive1 asks: Ray, can you tell me why there isn't an automatic five-year jail term (no parole) to anyone caught just carrying a firearm — would that be some sort of deterrent?
Ray Lambie: Yes I believe that significant penalties should apply to the possession unlawfully of any weapon such as a hand gun. However, we must remember that many armed robberies are committed with weapons such as syringes, screwdrivers, knifes or even a brick. So it's no longer your classic firearm offence.
Guest_markgenesis in ninemsnLive2 asks: Do you believe places such as garages have a duty of care for staff that work night-shift, such as security screens, etc?
Ray Lambie: The answer is yes. As I said before, an employer has a non-delegable duty of care to their employees. They must formulate standard operating procedures, physical security counter-measures [and] have their staff appropriately trained and of course supervised so that they work according to the best practice. In essence, businesses at risk of armed robbery should have a thorough risk assessment performed to enable them to quantify the risks and appropriate levels of controls which are required to keep staff and customers safe.
Guest_Antartica in ninemsnLive2 asks: What would represent a serious deterrent to perpetrators of an armed hold-up?
Ray Lambie: That is a very good question. However, when you consider that armoured cars … with a well-trained and firearm-equipped crew are targeted by armed robbery, then we must again reinforce the harm-minimisation aspects of the crime. Ultimately, from the potential victims' point of view there must be a combination of physical security, cash-management procedures as well as staff training. That must be evident to anyone who may be intending that they would be a target. What we must do is create in the bandits' perception a high risk of being unsuccessful and a potential low-yield reward. Significantly though, I also believe that a long-term jail sentence is a good deterrent to re-offending and enhances community safety.
Guest_Chris in ninemsnLive2 asks: Do you believe risk management should be incorporated into OH&S policy?
Ray Lambie: Yes. In fact, there is a duty specifically where armed robbery is concerned that the formula of risk management — that being risk identification, risk assessment and risk control — be applied to provide workplace safety. The WorkCover Authority of NSW has a number of informative books which deal specifically with this type of workplace violence risk.
Guest_Mr_x in ninemsnLive1 asks: Can a workplace be held responsible for their staff being held up? Are they liable for compensation lump sums?
Ray Lambie: There are a number of penalties which can be applied to an employer in the event of an armed robbery taking place. That may be in the form of a fine from WorkCover or it may even extend to a civil claim of negligence by an employer. These claims are becoming more common in recent times and are regularly contested in the District and Supreme courts. I have prepared many reports in relation to aspects of security negligence or adequacy relating to these claims.
Guest_ROBBERY_WiTH_ViOLENCE in ninemsnLive2 asks: What is the best way to protect our house?
Ray Lambie: Although there has been an increase in the crime that is known as home invasion, in general the same principles of target-hardening apply to the home. We must take away the opportunities for our house to be targeted. Again, it is a combination of physical security and occupant awareness which creates the harder-target physical security … window and door locks are a good start. But it has been my experience that the weakest link in household security are the residents. If you are a businessman holding valuables at home then you need appropriate advice to deal with your specific circumstances.
Guest_Mark in ninemsnLive1 asks: When you said in the interview that the police service had lost sight of the ball, do you mean that regionalisation of the police service or some other similar issue has affected investigative abilities or resources?
Ray Lambie: Yes, that is part of the problem. It should be noted that criminals have not been regionalised and know of no barriers such as local area commands or regions. Specifically, the crime of armed robbery is a national problem and must be treated as a big picture. I have dealt with professional criminals who have targeted the various states throughout Australia — it is part of their risk management. We need to be at least as professional in our police response if we are to be competitive. However, most armed robberies in the state of NSW are committed upon general citizens just walking the streets. They are victimised 3:1 more than anyone through choice of industry or occupation. It is my opinion that a dedicated and skillful investigative team, properly tasked, could reduce the amount of armed robberies considerably as well as successfully prosecute the offenders.
Steven_9msn in ninemsnLive2 asks: What attracts people to certain people's properties to rob in the first place?
Ray Lambie: It may be a combination of a good cashflow business, such as has been recently experienced by clubs and pubs, or at the other end of the range it may be specific information about property or valuables which are on site. You must remember, for example, that service stations, which are the biggest target for business armed robbery, provide a very convenient location or target. That is why correct cash-handling, environmental design, lighting and natural surveillance all target-harden places such as service stations against armed robbery. But remember, armed robbery is a risk which cannot be eliminated. That is why we try to minimise the likelihood of it occurring. But if it does occur, we also minimise the impact upon our people, who through training must understand what they should do to get it over and done with as quickly and as safely as possible.
Guest_Neddy in ninemsnLive2 asks: Are training programs such as the one which featured Ray's company, Websters, proving to be of assistance to staff during a robbery?
Ray Lambie: Quite clearly, yes. I personally train people from large security companies in cash in transit and down to people who work in retail and fast food. I have encountered many people during the training who have been victims of robbery. They have expressed to me their relief at now understanding what this relationship between the victim and the criminal is all about. I must also say that there is a duty under OH&S for every employer who has the identified risk of armed robbery to suitably train their employees. Our training program has now been endorsed in Australia, NZ, South Africa and the US.
Guest_carmen in ninemsnLive1 asks: I cannot believe that you would say on national TV that even sexual assault is something that you recover from. Maybe you do physically but never mentally — I have had thoughts that death would be better.
Ray Lambie: I understand your anxiety and I know that this is an emotive issue. No doubt that was why the question was framed. In all the time that I was investigating armed robbery I only ever became aware that sexual assault became part of the armed robbery crime on two occasions. As I said, I know it is an emotive issue and I have personally dealt with many victims of sexual assault. I appreciate the impact of that crime but I stand by my earlier statement. You must also understand that between the years 1990 and 2000, one in every 10 homicide cases was as a direct result of robbery-related crime. [I] in no way wish to minimise the impact of sexual assault and apologise to you if you felt that that was the case.
Guest_rachel in ninemsnLive1 asks: Have you written a book on the subject?
Ray Lambie: No, I have written a number of articles which have been published in various trade magazines and other journals. However, I have not dedicated a book to the subject of armed robbery.
Guest_franky in ninemsnLive2 asks: Ray, have you a website for your firm?
Ray Lambie: Yes. The address is
Steven_9msn in ninemsnLive2 asks: If a person is not expected to protect themselves (weapon-wise), what's the best way to stop these intruders entering your life to begin with — even with the most sophisticated systems they can be broken into? What is a person to do?
Ray Lambie: Yes, that is right. As we've already said, we must minimise the impact of the crime. It has been my experience in dealing with the victims of the crime that the most significant and common injury is that of post-traumatic stress — I understand that it is a very real injury. The way to
minimise the psychological impact of the crime of armed robbery is to understand it, and the better we understand it then the less impact it will have on us psychologically.
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: Ray, thank you for joining us tonight. We have run out of time tonight — before we finish is there anything you would like to say to our chat guests which hasn't already been covered?
Ray Lambie: I would just like to emphasise that the first ingredient in any armed robbery will be surprise. Like most critical incidents that we may encounter in our lives, it is almost predictable except for the timing of it. What we must do is have ourselves prepared to deal with this issue if it arises today, tomorrow, in five years' time or never. Do not wait until someone puts you under immediate pressure to find out how you would respond. We must be prepared and understand that the only thing we can control are the opportunities for it to occur to us. You must also understand that what I have told you tonight is not a panacea to all armed robbery deterrents. You must tailor your requirements for yourself and it must be a thoughtful process. Your main consideration must be for personal safety — money means nothing.
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: Ray, once again thank you and goodnight.
Guide_OC_amicus in ninemsnLive says: This concludes our live chat with Ray Lambie, April 28, 2002.
